An argument about first dates made me question if I am an incel

I had an argument with a female friend that made me very upset. Throughout the argument, I wasn’t even sure we truly disagreed, since I agreed with a lot of the things she said. However, I was upset that I could not get her to acknowledge that many men are negatively impacted by societal expectations. The specific point that I wanted to defend was that men should not be expected to pay for first dates, but I didn’t see any chance of getting her to agree with me.

The conversation started out with me bringing up that I don’t like it when men are expected to pay for first dates instead of splitting the bill. I expressed the belief that many men have been socially conditioned to believe paying for the first date improves their chances of forming a relationship. I believe these societal expectations cause men to develop more misogynistic viewpoints and are harmful in society. I speculated that, on average, men who insist on paying for the first date might hold more traditional—and potentially misogynistic—views compared to those who offer to split the bill.

My friend got upset at my claim. She asked me to consider that women at every level of society make less than their male counterparts, and the income disparity creates an obligation for men to pay for dates and gifts. I responded that while income disparities exist, these expectations are still placed on young men in high school and college—many of whom have no income at all. I continued to state that men have societal expectations that are reinforced from a young age that tie their self worth to their income. I think these expectations are toxic to the men themselves and are another contributing factor to misogyny among men. I mentioned that women often date partners with higher income, which can contribute to feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt among men.

My friend countered that if a man was unable to provide for his significant other, then it is selfish for him to want to start a relationship. Throughout the conversation, I was generally pretty calm and spoke from a depersonalized perspective, but this comment was the only point where I got mad. I snapped and told her that many men already internalize those beliefs—and asked if she had considered how damaging they can be to men's mental health. I thought about a girl that I liked in the past, and the shame I felt when I saw her Instagram stories about concerts and restaurants I would not afford as a broke college student. While I now recognize the cowardice I exhibited and shallowness in believing that I was unworthy to date her, I also believe that I am not unique in my feelings of shame and inadequacy. I didn’t share those memories with her, recognizing they stemmed from a particularly low and vulnerable point in my life.

My friend then stated that it is unfair to place the blame of these men’s behavior on society, and that their behavior is a result of their own choices. I replied that while I agree that these men should be held accountable for their behavior, I also believe that men receive harmful messaging from society that increases the risk that they develop misogynistic tendencies.

My friend then critiqued me on my use of the word society, and accused me of making it seem like all of society is conspiring against men. I felt that this was a stupid argument, I said that men at all stages of their lives meet people that repeatedly reinforce the notion that their self worth is tied to their achievements and wealth. I continued that I didn’t believe there was a secret agenda that was targeting men, however, my only point was that certain societal expectations may unintentionally push some men toward misogynistic beliefs.

My friend stated that it is incredibly insensitive for me to complain about men’s issues when there are far more pressing issues in society, such as the issues affecting women, minorities, and members of the lgbtq community. I replied that while I also recognize the pressure that society has on those communities, I don’t appreciate how whenever men talk about things that are affecting their lives, they are immediately shut down and dismissed as insignificant.

Her final point was that her friends and the men she met in her life are all in healthy relationships where the men don’t air these grievances. I replied that I have personally spoken to many men that have expressed dissatisfaction with all the responsibility that they are placed with. She replied that I might just make friends that share similar viewpoints as me, and misogynists attract other misogynists. At that point, it felt like we were speaking past each other, and I didn’t know how to move the conversation forward. I let the conversation drop, and went home.

Could I get a sanity check? I had a pretty rough high school, so I might have been left with incel tendencies. That said, I think I’ve built a healthy social life and consider myself fairly well-adjusted and left-leaning. While it is true that I have met many individuals in my life that shared these sentiments, I also cannot deny that being a nerdy boy may have attracted acquaintances that have incel tendencies. I’ve come to accept the expectation to pay for dates and give gifts because I believe that whether someone offers splits the bill or not is a poor indicator of relationship success. My arguments contained no real data, and consists only of anecdotal evidence I have acquired from speaking to other men and watching youtube videos. While I would admit that my viewpoint may be biased due to primarily watching male youtubers, I have made an effort to stay away from male influencers such as Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate that spew hateful ideology. My friend is a very sweet person, so I am left questioning whether the hurt part of me from high school is speaking.